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Post by Lorenor on Dec 12, 2015 12:13:55 GMT -8
There are a few things I want to point out regarding this new set. Since I assume most people don´t even know about it yet, the new set effect that unlocks if you wear both Crossbow and Shroud is, that you gain a 25% chance to shoot a fourth bolt. This chance is increased by 1.2% for every point in foraging and 0.6% for each point in forestry.
First, you should add which item is required to unlock the perk bonus for both items, so the rep. crossbow text should mention the shroud and the other way round. Without the patch notes I would´ve had no idea which other item I need to unlock the effect.
You also called this a "nerf" in the patchnotes, I´m sure you meant buff though... don´t know how this could be a nerf.
That aside, there are also some things in the general design of the new set that are bothering me. I know that it is an attempt to make up for the fact that the crossbow effect (more attacks, but 50% reduced attack damage) and the shroud passive (10% of attack damage as additional willpower) are anti-beneficial. But the new effect "contravenes" not only one but two of the basic design rules of KT:
1. No RNG (Random Number Generator) elements during combat - Of course there´s quite a lot of rng during the gathering phase and also with quests, taming etc. But you will notice that nothing that directly influences combat, such as equipment, spells, consumables, has any random effect. The last rng effect on a weapon was the explosion on the fish sticker, but even that got changed in patch 1.33. I really like this design concept and would prefer to see an effect for the set that works without rng.
2. No direct connection between equipment and skills - While I personally don´t have a problem with it, I want to at least point out that this is also something that Qancakes apparently tried to avoid. I think he ment to give the players less direct "build sets", instead they should think of and try out their own builds. This also means that there should be a minimum of set bonus effects in the game in general, so maybe a completely different solution would be the best.
My suggestion is to change the effect for the repeating crossbow slightly. Instead of shooting 3 bolts with 50% damage, it shoots all bolts with 100% damage, but if one target gets hit by multiple bolts, the second and third hit are reduced to 25%. This means that the attack damage stays at 100% all the time (means you get the full willpower bonus from the shroud). It also means that it´s now less annoying to hit secondary targets, sometimes it´s even better, especially in group fights, because you can deal up to twice as much damage with one attack if you hit three targets instead of one.
I still haven´t found a way to make the crossbow viable without the murloc skull though, which I think is the biggest problem.
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Post by Broot on Dec 13, 2015 10:47:11 GMT -8
@ Lore, in 1.35 - I added the repeater for fun and it always gave an extra hit - I realized how powerful this was (given you have venge and murloc) and decided it could be weakened by making the last bolt a chance.
1. The set requirements are listed in the item tooltips, but not in the crafting section. This was to keep consistency, because the heavy tower set tooltips were done in the same way.
2. Hmm that is an interesting - I thought the game lacked sets, and was hoping in the future that each item can have multiple sets with different kinds of items. So like items get bonuses when paired with different kind of items - still giving you that ability to choose a set for an item. The repeater set was just the beginning (or perhaps the end? We'll see).
3. This is a very good suggestion to change the crossbow, tbh it still sucks even if you have 4 hits and you don't have murloc skull. Unless there are any real objections to this idea - I want to put this in.
Thanks.
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Post by Lorenor on Dec 13, 2015 12:06:52 GMT -8
I´m not sure if we are talking about the same thing. What I meant was that in the set description, so the grey text, does not tell which second item is required to activate the set. I´m pretty sure that the tower shield and heavy iron breastplate each have the name of the other set piece in their item tooltips, which the crossbow and the shroud don´t have.
I wouldn´t say that implementing sets is a bad thing, not at all. The difficult part is to keep a large variety of building options. If you add 3 or 4 set boni to every piece of equipment, there´s still enough variety, but that means you´d have to add roughly 80 different new effects and even more with every new piece of equipment.
That´s why I prefer a more "subtile" kind of set, which I call the "hidden set bonus". The best example for such a hidden set is the combination of Enigmatic Staff, Bear Shaman´s Shroud and Vengeful Murlock Skull:
You get STR and WIL from the staff, the STR is converted into more WIL thanks to the bear shaman´s shroud, and all of this WIL is converted into additional magic damage from the skull. So without having to add a specific set bonus, these three pieces of equipment harmonize perfectly.
This equipment design is especially great when adding new equipment, because oftentimes this will create new "hidden set boni" that the creator might not even have thought about. All in all, the hidden set boni give players the feeling that they found this special build themself, while with pre-made set boni, it feels a little bit like getting told from the creator which equipment you have to combine (at least that´s my view on this).
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Post by Broot on Dec 13, 2015 15:03:57 GMT -8
Wow, looks like I have some catching up to do in terms of KT's hidden mechanics;; Those are some really good points you bring up - looks like I'll have to practice being less blunt with my ideas.
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Post by Lorenor on Dec 14, 2015 1:37:22 GMT -8
That´s maybe what I love most about KT. It´s equipment design is so well thought out as I have otherwise found only in MobAs like League of Legends or DotA. And don´t worry, I think noone, not even Qancakes, is aware of all of these little details that shape the structure of KT, but that´s what the community is for  |
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Post by Lorenor on Dec 15, 2015 7:39:16 GMT -8
I think I just found a good solution for the repeating crossbow:
STATs:
+3 DEX
+6 STR
Passive: This weapon doesn´t gain attack speed from DEX. Instead, it shoots 1 additional bolt per 12 bonus DEX (bonus DEX = DEX value minus the 18 base dexterity). That means with 30 DEX it shoots two bolts, with 42 DEX 3 and with 54 DEX 4 bolts. If multiple bolts hit the same target, only the first one deals full damage, all other bolts only deal 25% damage against this target.
Now what exactly does this mean? First, it nerfs the Repeating Crossbow + Murlock Skull combination, because it´s almost impossible to get 42 DEX when your offhand doesn´t give any DEX and your mainhand only 2 or 3. And even if you somehow get to 42 DEX, that means you sacrificed a lot of WIL, which lowers the magic damage from the skull significantly.
Thanks to the nerf of this set, we can in exchange buff the STATs of the repeating crossbow so that it becomes viable in other builds.
I chose 12 DEX as the value for an additional bolt because 1 DEX usually gives 2% attack speed, so 12 DEX give 24%, which is almost the same as 25% additional damage from an extra bolt.
The exact values still need some testing in the beta, but I think the general concept is promising.
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Post by Snipeshow on Dec 15, 2015 13:59:51 GMT -8
If I may chime in...
How many different builds will give 42 dexterity? It seems like this method would make it so that the repeater is only taken when you're doing a very specific build (dexterity that will hit a multiple of 12), which I don't like. I like games where I can freely choose a different item because it has interesting effects I like, or it suits my play style.
Also, assuming you're hitting a single target, getting 30 dexterity will allow you to hit for 125% whatever your damage is right? Wouldn't it just be smarter to get some strength instead to do the same amount, or more? I feel like the item bonus is boring and restrictive.
I think an item that focuses on attack speed should always have some sort of RNG proc, or on hit effect associated with it, like every other game.
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Post by Lorenor on Dec 15, 2015 15:38:40 GMT -8
I think there are multiple builds that reach 42 DEX, 54 might become difficult, but I think that´s ok, it should be something special to have 4 bolts.
The difference between more bolts and more attack damage is that you can hit multiple targets with the bolts for FULL DAMAGE, so you could potentially deal 300% of your attack damage in one attack by hitting three different targets. Also, you can still use it in combination with on-hit effects like murloc skull (currently the only on-hit effect except for weapon effects, I believe, but maybe there will be more in future patches), so that´s another difference.
About your last part: There are no RNG elements on combat effects in KT, and I think it should stay this way. I don´t have a problem with on-hit-effects, I even believe there should be more, but putting on-hit effects on a weapon with multiple attacks is a little too simple, don´t you think? I prefer having the on-hit effects on other equipment, so that I can combine it with whatever I want.
Edit: Maybe the attack speed bonus could just be lowered to 1% per DEX. You are right that gaining no bonus whatsoever from 11 out of 12 DEX values isn´t very enjoyable.
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Post by Octometaknight on Jan 1, 2016 3:24:27 GMT -8
How about for every 7 points in Dexterity or Willpower (whichever is highest) it shoots 1 additional bolt, but the shots deal only 40% of your standard attack damage?
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Post by Lorenor on Jan 1, 2016 7:33:51 GMT -8
That would be kinda the opposite of what I tried to achieve with the change, because it would make a Rep. Crossbow - Murloc Skull combi even stronger. Not only would you have a lot of damage with the skull, but also shoot more bolts (which means even more skull damage procs) the more willpower you have. So with, let´s say, 46 willpower, the skull would deal around 25 magic damage 5 times per attack. Therefore all builds without the murloc skull would be absolutely useless, because the 60% lowered base damage is even worse than the 50% damage it was before the change.
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Post by dnsingbanana on Feb 4, 2016 18:08:26 GMT -8
If i may come in so late...
I agree with Lorenor : hard-coded set bonuses don't really profit the game, since you basically tell the player what to do. And all the items benefits other items in terms of stats/effect. Take the new tower shield and the new iron breastplate : even without set bonuses, all the armor, and the fact that (from what i seem to have seen) the %damage reduction from tower shield applies before the 4 damage reduction, you end up reducing 4 out of an already minuscule amount, which in terms of damage reduction nothing could come close to that.
Now about repeating crossbow : i came with a version that is a totally different one, but still fun : since the faithful whirlwind is already a ranged weapon that can deal area of effect damage, repeating crossbow feels a bit redundant, and the choice between the two might just be stat-based.
So here is :
Repeating crossbow :
Same stats, same cost, same everything except the effect :
Divides you base attack time by two (you attack twice as fast), but your attacks only deal 65% damage (and i would make it apply to vengeful murloc skull, if it's actually possible to code. Else, just make it so no on hit effects are applied, i don't like items being balanced around on-hit effects meaning that without the said on-hit-effect it ends up being bad). When someone shoots once, you shoot twice, for a total of 130% damage (might be a little high) however it means that it's really hard, to not say impossible, to hit and run. Great if you are in a good position, and protected, otherwise you'll just get caught quicky and will die.
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Post by slapshot136 on Feb 4, 2016 19:23:52 GMT -8
I agree with Lorenor (the content of his original post - not sure about the other tweaks) - I would prefer to just have the normal mechanics work in unison, which allows for much more "discovery" than "set" items that quickly make the items too weak to use without the "set", or too OP with the "set" - in fact, I would prefer a meta mechanic of adaptability having an advantage over a specialized build in most encounters, such that while the specialized build can still shine if the conditions are right, being adaptable has it's own advantage, similar to how the perks are - yes, you can go 55 in one stat, but that leaves you vulnerable to many other builds at the same time, and you aren't "locked in", as a 10-10-10-10-15 build is just as viable as is a 25-25-5-0-0 or similar
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Post by comander on Dec 23, 2016 11:02:24 GMT -8
To be honest I love the multi crossbow, it works well with my build style, the way I use it is from the most current version, I was short a computer for a long while while you guys also transitioned to KT new while I wasn't on, so hoping into KT new was a real trip, I learned quickly spells could be integrated more into your builds then ever before, for example, build the repeating crossbow, have the heart peircer, and then have the upgrade from the huntsman jacket, the one that spawns the palisades, combo this with forestry and Foraging (I usually do the crafting so I run it as Forestry and Artesian) to make this work well you need the range bonus, you need the spell for the life steal per attack. This may not seem too strong at a glance, but on average I was able to inflict a LOT of damage, if I was to build foraging instead of Artesian it would be a hard combination to match in a ranged competition. For example, my maxed level kobold with this kit does an average of 23-30 dmg per bolt (Depends on opponents armor), doesnt seem like much, add in the effect I mentioned and I take reduced dmg, heal myself, as well as deal an extra 30 dmg per bolt (that bypasses armor), and its utility is that it steals food from the target as well, making them succeptable to being dieing of hunger if they take too many of those volleys head on. Although I didnt know about this set combo you guys refered too at the start of this thread, it sounds nasty if used properly.
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